【海外看中國】天災還是人禍？真的是吃扁蝠引發了武漢新型冠狀病毒嗎？_風聞

關於此次武漢新型冠狀病毒的源頭，一開始是指向武漢華南海鮮市場的野wei區，後來又發現了並沒有華南市場接觸史的早期案例。有實驗室發現此次武漢病毒基因序列與扁蝠身上所帶的病毒極為相似，把源頭指向扁蝠，後又有專家指出此次病毒可能是由人食用蛇，蜥蜴等野生動物引起。關於這次武漢肺炎與扁蝠的關係，可能需要很長一段時間才能弄清楚。

Quan Zhang, Am Chinese

Originally Answered: Why are people in China eating bats, even though they’re known to carry horrible diseases that can spread to humans?

OP, I’m jusy going to humor you rather than reporting the question as insincere:

There’s a lovely little book called Guns, Germs, and Steel (only $8.51 on Kindle!) that tells you all about how we get diseases. Most of it comes from animal transmission via livestock due to the fact that we spend much more time around them compared to other animal species. It’s not that you get sick from eating an unsuitably weird animal, but you get sick because of exposure to them. For bats, specifically, they’re social animals that live in large colonies, thus diseases spread among them easily, and being flying creatures that spend a lot of energy which in turn causes them to have a very high body temperature, any viruses that do survive on them will survive a normal human fever.

But it doesn’t have anything to do with eating bats, in and of itself.

That Europe and Asia hit the genetic and geography lottery and got most of the donesticatable animals, while the Americas just got dogs and alpacas, is why Old World plagues decimated native populations, but there weren’t very many native diseases wiping out Europeans.

You might as well ask why we eat beef even though we can get mad cow from it.

Quan Zhang

我是中國人

我只是想讓你開心，而不是把這個問題説成是不真誠的：

有一本可愛的書叫《槍炮、細菌和鋼鐵》（Kindle上只要8.51美元！），這告訴你我們是怎麼得病的。其中大部分是通過家畜傳播的，因為與其他動物物種相比，我們花在它們身上的時間要多得多。不是因為你吃了一種不合適的怪獸而生病，而是因為你接觸了它們而生病。特別是對扁蝠來説，它們是羣居動物，因此疾病很容易在它們之間傳播。它們又是飛行動物，會耗費大量能量，從而導致它們的體温非常高，任何在它們身上存活的病毒都能在正常的人類發燒中存活。

但這本身與吃扁蝠沒有任何關係。

歐洲和亞洲中了基因和地理彩票，得到了絕大多數可吃的動物，而美洲只得到了狗和羊駝，這就是為什麼舊大陸瘟疫奪走了新大陸的本地人口，但沒有太多的本地疾病消滅歐洲人。

你也可以問為什麼我們吃牛肉，即使我們可以從中得到瘋牛病。

Ray Hart, Digital Nomad Co-Living Davao City and San Diego

This is an airborne virus which isn’t caught by eating anything. Do animals play a role? Possibly. There are millions of strains of coronavirus in the world. Most animals can host some of these viruses, including your pets. What is believed to have happened is this strain started as one form, possibly even in humans, then went through a period of transformation as it was passed between species. That is how most zoonotic diseases come about.

Western media is hyping up the fact that a wet market, which are common all over eastern Asia, has live animals. This is true, but so does your average American grocery store or Walmart Supercenter, Meijers, or a host of similar stores. If you have any doubt take a walk through the meat ans seafood and look at the live lobster & crabs or through the pet department where the fish, birds, or small animals are sold, not to mention the malls with their pet stores usually being fairly close to restaurants and food courts. If you believe that rats, bats, snakes, birds, mice, and feral cats aren’t part of your american grocery store ecosystem then you are deluding yourself. While they do their best to keep such off the sales floors and do what they can, they can be found lurking around any grocery store in America.

The real reason the wet market is the assumed contact point is it is the central shopping location. Going to the wet market in Asia is no different than going to Walmart, Target, or Kroger to buy groceries and incidentals. Shutting down wet markets would be the equivalent of shutting down all the grocery stores in the US and telling people that they can now only buy groceries at the dollar store or 7–11.

Ray Hart

這是一種不會被任何食物傳染而是通過空氣傳播的病毒。動物在其中起作用了嗎？可能吧。世界上有數百萬株冠狀病毒。大多數動物都能感染其中一些病毒，包括你的寵物。據信已經發生的是，這種菌株開始可能是人類身上的一種病毒形式，然後經歷了一個轉變時期，變得可以在不同物種之間傳播。這就是大多數人畜共患病的原因。

西方媒體正在大肆宣傳這樣一個事實：在整個東亞地區都很常見的潮濕市場上有活的動物售賣。這是真的，但普通美國雜貨店或沃爾瑪超市，美捷，或許多類似的商店也一樣。如果你有任何疑問，可以在肉類和海鮮區散步，看看活龍蝦和螃蟹，或者通過出售魚、鳥或小動物的寵物部，更不用説那些寵物店通常離餐館和美食廣場相當近的商場了。如果你相信老鼠、扁蝠、蛇、鳥、老鼠和野貓不是美國雜貨店生態系統的一部分，那你就是在自欺欺人。儘管他們盡最大努力遠離銷售樓層，但在美國任何一家雜貨店附近都能發現他們的身影。

潮濕市場之所以被假定為接觸點，是因為它是購物中心。去亞洲潮濕的菜市場和去沃爾瑪、塔吉特或克羅格買雜貨沒什麼兩樣。關閉潮濕的市場相當於關閉美國所有的雜貨店，告訴人們現在只能在一元店或7-11購買食品。

Lizy Liz

It is not just the Chinese. Human being had always eaten all these animals before industrialization and urbanization happened. People living in cities are far away from wild animals food resources so slowly they changed their diet to only farm raised animals. People living near to wild animals still consume wild caught meat. This is true in every country in the world. This is actually the natural way of living. Wild caught meat do have higher risk of carrying unknown virus as they were not given various kind of vaccine or drugs to fend off the virus. However, these animals do not suffered the long term torture of spending their whole life in cramped captivity.

Bats were eaten almost to extinction in Italy Bat as food - Wikipedia It is still widely consumed in Africa and south east Asia. I had seen people openly slaughter bats, snakes and other wild animals in the wet market in my country. Not China, not Chinese. My town had easy access to rainforest with abundance of wild animals. It is traditional. It is natural for the natives to consume wild caught meat. It is free. Commercial farm raised animals is a very new concept to them. Like just 30 or 40 years at most. There are laws against hunting without permit now. However, one may still hunt with permit except for some protected species. Yes, I agree that there is risk.

No one created the virus (let’s eliminate the possibility of bioweapon here). Microorganisms are prone to mutation naturally. Even our human body cells mutated easily. Think cancer cells. Maybe every living organism has survival code in them. Human advance medicines had prevented a lot of microorganisms from attacking one of their hosts, humans. The number of wild animals decreased. The virus are in dire situation. They could not find enough host to continue their genetic codes. The only way is for them to mutate and become stronger so they could attack more hosts. Well, this is just a theory but I do believe that sooner or later the nature is going to cut down the number of human beings. Because our numbers is just too big and overwhelming. Being the country with most number of people. It is just normal that virus outbreak is more prone to happen in China. Where there are more hosts, there are more virus. When there are more virus, it is easier to get mutated virus. Just my unprofessional theory.

There is actually no proof that the virus started specifically from bats. What the Chinese authorities discovered was that there were samples found to have the virus protein on them. Most of them are from the wild caught animals section. So they believed that wild animals might be the source.

However, there could also be another possibility. The wild animals might have caught the virus from human being. Maybe it was the hunter. Maybe it was the transporter. Since this virus is not 100% deadly. The hunter might be just a carrier. Hunters who live in rough condition usually have higher immune system than city folks. It is generally known that people grew up in dirty slump has stronger immune systems against contaminated foods and drinks. Some people might have natural resistance to some virus. So these animals caught it from a human hunter. Brought to a city market which has all the condition for it to spread fast.

Or, this virus might already be dormant inside an wuhan resident. It mutated at one time. This person not realizing it. He loves wild caught meat. Maybe he just love to watch the animals like I did when I was little. Maybe he knew someone working there and always went there to say hello. Spent the most time at the wild meat section where there is a lot of living animals. Hence explained why most samples are from wild caught section but not all of them.

I could be totally wrong because I only got a little bit of information and is just doing wild guessing.

I have a few questions if it is from the wild animals:

Where are the hunters and transporters now?

Did the hunters and transporters get infected?

Is there any news about some distance village where this virus attacked the village where the hunters live? (Haven’t heard about it)

Is it possible that the first patient might be the first host where this virus mutated?

I am not a scientist. Not a professional. Just a commoner with wild imagination.

Lizy

不僅僅是中國人，在工業化和城市化之前，人類就一直吃這些動物。生活在城市裏的人們遠離野生動物等食物來源，所以他們慢慢地將飲食改為只吃飼養的農場動物。住在野生動物附近的人仍然食用野外捕獲的肉類，世界上每個國家都是這樣。這其實是自然的生活方式。野外捕獲的肉類攜帶未知病毒的風險更高，因為它們沒有接種各種疫苗或藥物來抵禦病毒。然而，這些動物並沒有遭受在狹窄的囚禁中度過一生的長期折磨。

扁蝠作為食物在意大利幾乎被吃到滅絕--維基百科。它在非洲和東南亞仍然被廣泛食用。在我的國家（不是中國，我也不是中國人），我曾看到人們在潮濕的市場上公開屠殺扁蝠、蛇和其他野生動物。我的鎮上很容易進入雨林因此有很多野生動物，當地人食用野外捕獲的肉類是很自然的，這是傳統。而且它是免費的。商業化的農場飼養動物對他們來説是一個非常新的概念。最多也就三四十年。現在有法律禁止未經許可的狩獵。然而，除了一些受保護的物種，人們仍然可以在許可證下狩獵。是的，我同意有風險。

沒有人制造出病毒（讓我們排除生物武器的可能性）。微生物很容易自然發生突變。甚至我們的人體細胞也很容易變異，想想癌細胞。也許每個生物都有生存密碼。人類先進的藥物已經阻止了許多微生物攻擊它們的宿主之一人類。野生動物的數量減少了，病毒的情況很糟糕，他們找不到足夠的宿主來繼續他們的遺傳密碼。唯一的辦法是讓它們變異並變得更強，這樣它們就能攻擊更多的宿主。好吧，這只是一個理論，但我相信自然遲早會減少人類的數量。因為我們的數字實在太大了。中國是人口最多的國家，病毒在中國更容易爆發是正常的。宿主越多，病毒就越多。病毒越多，就越容易變異。當然這只是我不專業的理論。

事實上沒有證據表明病毒是從扁蝠身上開始的。中國當局發現的是，有樣本發現上面有病毒蛋白。他們中的大多數是野生動物科的。所以他們相信野生動物可能是源頭。

不過，也有另一種可能。野生動物可能從人類身上感染了這種病毒。也許是獵人，也許是運輸工具。因為這種病毒不是100%致命的，獵人可能只是一個攜帶者。生活在惡劣環境中的獵人通常比城裏人有更高的免疫系統。眾所周知，在骯髒的環境中長大的人對受污染的食物和飲料有更強的免疫系統。有些人可能對某種病毒有天然的抵抗力。所以這些動物是從一個人類獵人那裏捕獲的。把它帶到一個有條件讓它迅速傳播的城市市場。

或者，這種病毒可能已經潛伏在武漢居民體內，它曾經變異過，但這個人沒有意識到。他喜歡吃野生動物。也許他只是喜歡像我小時候那樣看動物。也許他認識一個在那裏工作的人，總是去那裏打招呼。大部分時間是在野肉區，那裏有很多活的動物。因此解釋了為什麼大多數樣品來自野生捕獲區，但並非全部。

我可能完全錯了，因為我只得到一點信息，只是在胡亂猜測。

如果是野生動物的話，我有幾個問題：

獵人和運輸車現在在哪裏？

獵人和運輸員被感染了嗎？

關於這個病毒襲擊獵人居住的偏遠村莊有什麼消息嗎？（沒聽説過）

第一個病人可能是第一個病毒變異的宿主嗎？

我不是科學家，不是專業人士，只是一個想象力豐富的平民。

​

David Johnson, Library Computer Person

Not really any more than any other animals are known to carry “horrible diseases." Pigs and chickens, for instance, are the source of many of our epidemics.

And, anyway, that whole “coronovirus started because someone ate a bat" story is, not to put too fine a point on it, bullshit.:

“Don’t Blame Bat Soup for the Wuhan Virus

Racist memes target Chinese eating habits, but the real causes of the coronavirus are more mundane.

BY JAMES PALMER

JANUARY 27, 2020, 6:40 PM

As news of the Wuhan virus spread online, one video became emblematic of its claimed origin: It showed a young Chinese woman, supposedly in Wuhan, biting into a virtually whole bat as she held the creature up with chopsticks. Media outlets from the Daily Mail to RT promoted the video, as did a number of prominent extremist bloggers such as Paul Joseph Watson. Thousands of Twitter users blamed supposedly “dirty” Chinese eating habits—in particular the consumption of wildlife—for the outbreak, said to have begun at a so-called wet market that sold animals in Wuhan, China.

There was just one problem. The video wasn’t set in Wuhan at all, where bat isn’t a delicacy. It wasn’t even from China. Instead it showed Wang Mengyun, the host of an online travel show, eating a dish in Palau, a Pacific island nation. Sampling the bat was simply an addition to the well-trodden cannon of adventurism and enthusiasm for unusual foods that numerous American chefs and travel hosts have shown in the past.

At a time of heightened fear over a viral pandemic, the Palau video has been deployed in the United States and Europe to renew an old narrative about the supposedly disgusting eating habits of foreigners, especially Asians. Images of Chinese people or other Asians eating insects, snakes, or mice frequently circulate on social media or in clickbait news stories. This time, that was mixed with another old racist idea: that the “dirty” Chinese are carriers of disease. Many Americans long believed that, as the New York Daily Tribune wrote in 1854, Chinese people were “uncivilized, unclean, filthy beyond all conception.” Today, those same ideas have often been transferred to other groups such as South American refugees, yet they still persist in the way some Westerners think about China.

At a time of heightened fear over a viral pandemic, the Palau video has been deployed in the United States and Europe to renew an old narrative about the supposedly disgusting eating habits of foreigners, especially Asians.

These prejudices can fuel fear and racism. As the Wuhan virus spreads, the Chinese as a group are more and more likely to be blamed for its incubation and spread. In countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia, where there are already clashes around ethnic Chinese, those sentiments could turn nasty. In the West, especially under the Trump administration, it could fuel both government and public prejudices.

To be sure, the treatment of wildlife may be at the root of the virus. Wet markets where live animals are sold, mostly for food or medicine, still exist in most Chinese cities, and the Huanan Seafood Market was originally believed to be the source of this outbreak. The Chinese government has banned the wildlife trade until the epidemic is over.

But as it turns out, the market may not have been the cause of the outbreak at all. A new study shows that the early known victims had no contact with the market. And although the virus, at present, does seem to have originated in bats, it’s unclear how it made its way to humans. It’s quite likely no chowing down on the creatures of the night was involved.”

David Johnson

圖書館計算機管理員

並不是所有其他動物都有“可怕的疾病”，例如豬和雞是我們許多流行病的源頭。

而且不管怎麼説，那整個“冠狀病毒是因為有人吃了扁蝠”的故事是胡説，別説得太過火了。

“不要把武漢病毒歸咎於扁蝠湯”，種族主義的巨魔以中國人的飲食習慣為目標，但冠狀病毒的真正原因可能更為普通。

作者：詹姆斯·帕爾默        2020年1月27日下午6:40

隨着武漢病毒的消息在網上傳播，一段視頻成為了其聲稱來源的象徵：視頻顯示，一名年輕的中國婦女，據説在武漢，用筷子托起扁蝠時，咬了幾乎整隻扁蝠。從《每日郵報》到RT（今日俄羅斯）的媒體都在宣傳這段視頻，保羅·約瑟夫·沃森（Paul Joseph Watson）等一些著名的極端主義博主也是如此。數千名推特用户將此次疫情歸咎於所謂的“骯髒”的中國飲食習慣，特別是野生動物的食用，這次病毒爆發據説是在中國武漢一個出售動物的所謂潮濕市場開始的。

只有一個問題：這段視頻根本不是在武漢拍攝的，那裏的扁蝠不是美味佳餚。視頻甚至不是從中國來的。而實際上是王夢雲，一個在線旅遊節目的主持人在太平洋島國帕勞吃的一道當地菜，而在許多美國廚師和旅遊主辦方在過去顯示出的冒險主義和對不尋常食物的熱情時扁蝠只不過是一個簡單的菜式補充。

在人們對病毒大流行的恐懼加劇之際，帕勞的視頻被髮布到美國和歐洲，以重温關於外國人，特別是亞洲人據稱令人厭惡的飲食習慣的舊説法。中國人或其他亞洲人吃昆蟲、蛇或老鼠的圖片經常在社交媒體或點擊誘餌新聞中傳播。這一次，這與另一個古老的種族主義思想混雜在一起：即“骯髒”的中國人是疾病的攜帶者。許多美國人一直認為，正如《紐約每日論壇報》（the New York Daily Tribune）在1854年所寫的那樣，中國人是“不文明、不潔、骯髒的，這是所有人都無法想象的”。如今，這些同樣的觀念常常被轉移到其他羣體，如南美難民，但他們仍然堅持一些西方人對中國的看法。

這些偏見會助長恐懼和種族主義。隨着武漢病毒的傳播，作為一個羣體的中國人越來越有可能被指責為其孵化和傳播的罪魁禍首。在馬來西亞和印尼等國，與華人的衝突已經發生，這些情緒可能變得惡劣。在西方，尤其是特朗普政府時期，這可能會助長政府和公眾的偏見。

當然，對野生動物的治療可能是病毒的根源。在中國大多數城市仍然存在着出售動物的主要市場，主要是食物或藥品，而華南海鮮市場原本被認為是此次疫情的源頭。中國政府已經禁止野生動物貿易，直到疫情結束。

但事實證明，市場可能根本不是爆發的原因。一項新的研究表明，早期已知的受害者與市場沒有接觸。儘管目前這種病毒似乎確實起源於扁蝠，但還不清楚它是如何傳播到人類身上的。很有可能與夜間生物無關。

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