劉曉明大使接受BBC直播專訪：抗擊疫情“人民戰爭”必勝！

2020年2月9日，劉曉明大使就中國抗擊新型冠狀病毒肺炎疫情接受英國廣播公司（BBC）旗艦高端訪談節目《安德魯·馬爾訪談》（The Andrew Marr Show）現場直播專訪。專訪實錄如下：

**馬爾：**劉大使，歡迎你。首先，可否請你介紹一下最新的病毒感染病例的數據，包括不幸病亡的病例數字？

**劉大使：**根據最新數據，截至北京時間2月8日24時，死亡病例811例，治癒病例2649例，治癒病例數是死亡病例數的3倍，這是令人鼓舞的，説明治療是有效的。此外，確診病例數首次超過疑似病例數，説明醫院的收治率在上升。你也看到我們新建的兩家醫院已投入使用，有效地提升了收治率和醫療救治能力。

**馬爾：**同時給人的印象是感染率仍在上升？

**劉大使：**是有新的感染，但我認為沒有必要恐慌。可以比較一下，這次病毒的致死率是2%左右，與埃博拉的40%、SARS的10%相比低得多，因此沒有必要恐慌。中國政府已經採取了最全面、最嚴格的防控措施。

**馬爾：**中國政府採取了不同尋常的措施，在城市周圍設置路障，實際上是對整個城市實施了防疫隔離。隔離期間大部分的交通關閉，經濟活動暫停。這種狀態還要持續多久？

**劉大使：**目前很難預測拐點何時到來，我們當然希望能早點到來。但是隔離防疫措施是相當有效的，目前大部分的病例仍集中在湖北和武漢。湖北的面積相當於英格蘭加蘇格蘭，人口相當於英格蘭加威爾士，涉及到相當大的範圍。

**馬爾：**受到影響的大約共有6500萬人吧？

**劉大使：**是5900萬人，但中方採取的措施是有效的，否則病毒很容易擴散到中國其他地區。中國人民不僅是在保護自身的生命安全和健康，也是在為保護世界人民的生命安全和健康作出貢獻。

**馬爾：**的確如此。中國政府是否準備在中國其他地區和城市實施同樣的隔離措施？

**劉大使：**這要視情況而定。湖北以外的中國其他地區也在採取防控措施。中國各地情況不同，雖然80%的感染病例發生在湖北省內，但全國人民都要提高警惕，所以其他地區也採取了相關預防性的防控措施。

**馬爾：**關於年輕醫生李文亮，他是最先對未知新病毒可能帶來威脅發出警告的人。然而中國政府逮捕了他，對他進行了嚴厲警告，稱他要是不悔改、繼續從事非法活動，他將受到法律的制裁。然後，令人悲傷的是，他去世了。你是否認為中國政府在這件事上做得不對？

**劉大使：**我要糾正你的説法，不是中國政府，是地方政府相關部門。**事實上，國家監察委員會已派出調查組赴湖北省武漢市，就羣眾反映的涉及李文亮醫生的有關問題進行全面調查。人們對李醫生的去世感到悲痛，我也通過推特表示哀悼和致敬。**李醫生是位英雄，人們會永遠記住他的勇氣和他為抗擊疫情作出的貢獻。他是中國成千上萬醫護工作者中的一員，他們都將生死置之度外，戰鬥在抗疫第一線。

**馬爾：**他們中的很多人都是英雄，但是李醫生公開談及信息公開的必要性。此時此刻中國政府是否已經意識到，面對這樣的形勢，中國需要信息更開放、反應更迅速？

**劉大使：**我們非常開放，我們分享了所有的信息，包括治療情況、病例情況，同時我們也歡迎國際合作。我們認為這次的病毒是人類共同的敵人，全世界應該並肩作戰。同時，我們與英方也正在進行良好合作。中國駐英國使館正在盡我們所能，支持中英兩國科學家合作研發治療藥物和疫苗。

視頻/觀察者網 鄭冰顥

**馬爾：**如果以中國的實力和所採取的所有措施，依然無法阻止病毒 -- 現在中國以外已經有感染病例，疫情是否將蔓延到全世界所有地區？

**劉大使：**我們會竭盡所能，但是我仍然要提醒人們不要恐慌。把新冠病毒與2009年美國流感（H1N1）做一個比較可以看出，那次流感蔓延到214個國家，而新冠病毒目前影響到25個國家和中國港澳台地區。我認為這次的疫情是可防、可控、可治的，我們相信，有中國中央政府的堅強領導，有全國人民眾志成城，有國際社會廣泛支持，我們一定能戰勝疫情，打贏疫情防控阻擊戰。

**馬爾：**中國對世界經濟至關重要。包括蘋果、汽車製造商、時尚產業在內的許多公司已經面臨供應鏈的問題，他們關心的是工廠何時重新開工。

**劉大使：**經濟當然會受到一定影響，但我認為影響是暫時和短期的，中國政府正在採取措施，推動企業復工復產。你在節目開始時也提到，中國正在打一場“人民戰爭”。舉國上下都動員起來了。我認為，對中國經濟應該保持信心，因為中國經濟的基本面依然良好。世界銀行、國際貨幣基金組織及國際知名經濟學家普遍認為，長期看，中國經濟仍極具韌性。

**馬爾：**但是短期影響將是非常嚴重的。很多公司都在擔心，希望知道中國的工廠何時復工？什麼時候能恢復生產蘋果手機？

**劉大使：**我不能替蘋果公司回答這個問題，但我知道，華為手機生產仍在順利進行。你會説中文嗎？（馬爾：你可能已經注意到，我不會説中文。）在中文裏，“危機”是由“危”和“機”兩個字組成的。我們始終認為，危機裏面藴含着機遇，因此我們正在努力化危為機。

**馬爾：**説到機遇，我想問個問題。疫情最初爆發時，就有人説中國政府試圖隱瞞，他們對中國政府釋放的種種信息表示高度懷疑。那麼中國共產黨和人民看到當前的情況，是否意識到中國需要比以往更加開放，到了做出改變的時候？

**劉大使：**我們沒有任何隱瞞。世界衞生組織（WHO）總幹事譚德塞高度評價中方的應對行動。我們與WHO以及包括英國在內的相關國家和地區分享信息，他們對中國體現出的開放和透明給予高度評價。

**馬爾：**1月22日，2000萬人在得到疫情爆發的消息後離開了湖北。換句話説，在疫情爆發初期，地方政府反應並不迅速，卻對李醫生採取了行動。他們是否會因此受到懲罰？

**劉大使：**這是一種新病毒，我們對它並不十分了解，認識它需要一個過程。但一旦意識到它的危害和風險，人們就會作出反應，採取正確的措施。李醫生做得很好，人們向他表示敬意。我剛才説了，中央政府已經派出工作組進行調查。有了調查結果之後，我會向你反饋。在對此事的處理中，任何人有任何不當行為都將承擔後果並受到懲罰。

**馬爾：**大使先生，你提到華為，現在有5位保守黨重量級議員在英國議會呼籲撤銷英國政府相關決定，確保華為被排除在英國5G網絡之外。他們認為華為毫無疑問與中國政府有着緊密的聯繫，在數據傳輸問題上是不可信賴的。5G網絡是關係到國家安全的基礎設施，中國政府同樣絕對不會允許任何英國公司參與其國家安全基礎設施核心建設。

**劉大使：**這些議員的説法是完全錯誤的，這與中世紀的“獵巫”如出一轍，可謂“欲加之罪，何患無辭”。華為是一家民營企業，與中國政府沒有任何關係。他們唯一的“問題”就是因為他們是一家中國公司。改革開放以來，中國越來越開放。中國現在實行市場經濟，民營企業在國民經濟中佔三分之一，外資合資企業佔三分之一。華為是完全獨立的公司，他們是電信領域的領軍者。英國首相之所以選擇華為，是因為他對英國的發展有非常雄心勃勃的計劃，希望在2025年前在英國實現5G網絡全覆蓋，而華為可以為之做出重要貢獻。

**馬爾：**這一決定的代價就是，美國特朗普總統火冒三丈、暴跳如雷，對約翰遜首相大發雷霆，對此你怎麼看？對首相站到中方一邊，你是否會感到滿意？

**劉大使：**英國首相和特朗普總統之間的事還是交給首相去處理吧。正如我常説，“不列顛”只有堅持獨立自主的外交政策，才能成為“大不列顛（英國）”。我希望約翰遜首相能堅持他的決定，這符合英國的利益，也有利於中英合作，更重要的是，有利於維護英國全球最開放、最自由的市場經濟形象。當然，我們對英方決定並非100%滿意，因為英方給華為設定了35%的市場份額上限，這不符合英國自由經濟和自由競爭的原則，但英方的決定仍是值得歡迎的。

**馬爾：**非常感謝劉大使接受我們的採訪。

採訪英文實錄：

On 9 February 2020, H.E. Ambassador Liu Xiaoming gave an exclusive live interview on BBC ONE’s Andrew Marr Show about China’s fight against the novel coronavirus epidemic. The full text is as follows:

Marr: The Chinese Ambassador Liu Xiaoming is joining me now.

Ambassador: Thanks for having me.

Marr: Ambassador, welcome. Can I ask you first of all to update us on the number of people infected in China so far as you know and sadly, the number of people who have died?

Ambassador: According to the latest figures by midnight Beijing time, the number of death cases is 811 and cured cases is 2,649. That is very encouraging. That means the number of cured cases is 3 times of the death cases. That means the effectiveness of the treatment. And also, we have seen that the confirmed cases for the first time exceed the suspected cases. That means the hospitalization rate is coming up. You know, we built 2 hospitals within 10 days. These figures show the improvement of the treatment and hospitalization.

Marr: Is it the impression that the rate of infection, however, is still increasing?

Ambassador: Yes, the rate is increasing. But I think people should not panic. If you compare the fatality rate, -- currently, it is 2%, much lower than the Ebola which is 40%, and lower than SARS which is 10% -- there is no reason to panic. The Chinese government has adopted the most comprehensive and strict, unconventional control measures.

Marr: You’ve done some extraordinary things as a government. You have effectively quarantined, you put a roadblock as it were around whole cities. And big parts of the transport system and the economy have closed down while this is going on. Can I ask you, how long is this going to have to go on for?

Ambassador: At this moment, it is very difficult to predict when we are going to have the inflection point. We certainly hope it will come sooner. But the isolation and quarantine measures have been very effective. So far, the most cases are concentrated in Hubei and Wuhan. Hubei is about the size of England plus Scotland, and the population is about England plus Wales. So this is such a large area.

Marr: 65 million people, therefore, around about that?

Ambassador: It’s 59 million. The measure has been effective. Otherwise, it will spread out to the other parts of China. And also, I think the Chinese people are making contribution not only for the safety of life and health of ourselves but also to that of the world people.

Marr: Indeed. Is the Chinese government ready to take the same kind of measures in other places in China, other cities?

Ambassador: It depends. I think there are some prevention and control measures taken in other parts of China. But, you know, China itself is different. 80% of the cases are concentrated in Hubei province. But people have to be cautious. So there are prevention and control measures taken in other parts of China.

Marr: There was the very difficult case of the young doctor Li Wenliang, who was the first person who alerted people that there was something strange going on, a new virus that was worrying and unknown. And the Chinese authorities arrested him and gave him a notice of admonishment and they were very, very tough with him. They said if you are stubborn, refused to repent and continue to carry out illegal activities, you will be punished by the law. And then sadly, he died. Do you think the Chinese state has made a mistake in that case?

Ambassador: I would correct you here. It’s not Chinese authorities. It is local authorities. Chinese authorities as a matter of fact, we have a supervision committee. It has sent an investigation team down to Wuhan to find out what was really going on. People feel very sad. I tweeted to express my condolences and paid tribute to Dr. Li. He will be remembered as a hero. He will be remembered for his bravery and contribution to the fight of this disease. But he is one of the millions of the Chinese medical doctors and nurses. We have so many of them on the forefront of this battle.

Marr: Many of them are being heroic at the moment. But nonetheless, he was very open about the need for openness. Is this the moment where the Chinese state looks into the situation and says we need to be more open and move more quickly when it comes to this kind of situation.

Ambassador: We are open. We shared all the information about the practice, the cases of disease. We welcome international cooperation as well. We believe this virus is the enemy of mankind. So people of all countries should work together to fight against the common enemy. And also, we work very hard with British scientists. So my Embassy tries very hard to facilitate Chinese scientists working with the British scientists to develop medicine and vaccine.

Marr: A very simple question is that if the Chinese state, with all its power and the way it operates, can’t stop this from spreading -- now it’s out of China, it’s going to spread everywhere, isn’t it?

Ambassador: We will try our best. But I still want to caution people: don’t panic. If you compare what is going on in China, this coronavirus, with H1N1 in America that spread to 214 countries. Now this virus has spread so far to 25 countries, and Hong Kong, Macao and Taiwan. We believe this virus is controllable, preventable and curable. So we are confident that with the strong leadership of the central government of China, with the people of China united behind the government and with the broad support of the international community, we can beat this virus and win the battle.

Marr: You also know of course that China is very, very important in the entire world economy. Lots and lots of companies, from Apple, making iPhones, to car-makers and fashion companies, are already seeing problems in the supply chain and they are asking, I’ll put this brutally and simply, when will the factories reopen?

Ambassador: Certainly. There is an impact on the economy. But I think the impact is temporary and short-term. The government now works very hard to encourage people to restore production. You said at the very beginning that we have waged a people’s war, so the whole country has been mobilized. And I think, you have to keep the confidence in Chinese economy, because the fundamentals of the economy are still sound. IMF, World Bank and many respected economists in the world believe in the long-term Chinese economy is very resilient.

Marr: There is going to be a very, very acute short-term hit to the economy. Lots and lots of companies are worried. I will ask again, do you know when Chinese factories will reopen? When will iPhones be manufactured again?

Ambassador: I can’t answer for iPhone. But I think the big smart phone producer Huawei is working round clock. I know you WILL ask me about Huawei. But they are doing very well in China. In China, we have a saying. Do you speak Chinese?

Marr: I speak no Chinese, as you may have noticed.

Ambassador: The Chinese word for“crisis”is the combination of two words, crisis and opportunities. We always believe there are opportunities in crisis. So we will try our best to turn crisis into opportunities.

Marr: Let me ask you about the opportunities here. As I said right at the beginning, there is a sense the Chinese state was hiding things and a lot of people were highly skeptical about the Chinese state when it said this or that. And I ask again, is this a moment when the Chinese Communist Party and the people within China look at the situation and think we need to be a much more open society than we have been? This is a moment of change in turn?

Ambassador: We didn’t hide anything. If you talk to the WHO Director-General Dr. Tedros, he spoke highly of the efforts made by China. We shared information with the WHO, shared information with countries like the UK and other relevant countries and regions. They all spoke highly of China’s transparency and openness.

Marr: And if I may just interrupt for a second. In Wuhan, about 20 million people were in and left the province after it was known that this virus was out on 22 January. In other words, right at the beginning there was not enough speed and the local authority did crack down on Dr. Li. Are they going to be punished for that?

Ambassador: You know, this is a new virus. People do not know it well. It will take some time for people to understand it. But once people realize the risk and danger, people will be mobilized. You have to adopt a reasonable approach. Dr. Li, as I said just a moment ago, he did a marvelous job. People paid tribute to him. And the central authorities sent an investigation team to find out what was really happening. I will get back to you if you would like to have a conclusion to find out what really happened. Those who had misconduct will be made accountable for their conduct, to be held responsible for the handling of this case.

Marr: Ambassador, you said I was going to raise Huawei and I am, absolutely. Because there are five leading conservative MPs who are competing with other conservative MPs to reverse the decision to ensure Huawei is kept out of the system, because they see Huawei as, first of all, absolutely connected to the Chinese state and being unreliable when it comes to transmissions and secrecy. This is part of our national infrastructure, they say, and there’s no way China would allow a British company to be absolutely at the centre of their national infrastructure in the same way.

Ambassador: I think they are totally wrong. What they are doing is a kind of witch-hunt. Number one, Huawei is a privately owned company having nothing to do with the Chinese government. The only problem they have is that they are a Chinese company, and that’s the problem. China is more open, as we get back to your original argument, since the reform and opening up. China has run a market orientated economy, and one third of Chinese economy is privately owned. The other one third is owned by foreign and joint ventures. So Huawei is an independent company and the leader in this area. I think the reason why the Prime Minister decided to keep Huawei is he has a very ambitious plan for the UK. He wants to have 5G coverage in the UK by 2025. Huawei can be of great help.

Marr: But the price he paid for that was the incandescent anger of Donald Trump. How do you respond when you heard Donald Trump absolutely blasting Boris Johnson? Were you pleased when he jumped to your side of the fence?

Ambassador: I will leave the Prime Minister to deal with President Trump. I always say Great Britain can only be great when it has its own independent foreign policy. So I do hope that the Prime Minister will stay with his decision, because I think it is in the interest of the UK. It’s also in the interest of China-UK cooperation. The important thing is that it is in the interest of maintaining British image as the most open and free market economy in the world. Although we are not 100% satisfied -- the 35% percent cap does not show your principle of free economy and free competition -- I think it’s a good decision.

Marr: Ambassador, thanks very much indeed for talking to us.